Episode 3: On intimacy-goodness as armor with micky scottbey jones
Chichi Agorom:
Micky, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here.
Micky Scottbey Jones:
Oh, thank you for having me. I, of course, it was an immediate yes, when you asked.
Chichi Agorom:
It was so fast, and I felt I, I like screamed, I think actually. Once I got your email back, I was like, yes! My first, yes! I'm very excited for our conversation, but I also–I'm starting with type one s in terms of going around the circle, and immediately I was like, the Enneagram One I want to talk to and start off this show with is Micky Scottbey Jones. So <laugh>, and part of that is because of how I feel like you embody both integrity and a deep desire for pleasure and play. That like, to me, really shows and emphasizes the work you've done internally to be able to hold both things. And the more I find out about you, the more I'm like, who is this person? How many lives have you lived? You're so fascinating. So I'm really glad to talk to you today.
Micky Scottbey Jones:
Oh, thank you. Yeah. I, you know, I feel like in some ways I am on a little bit of a mission to you know, correct...Here I go already as a one,
Chichi Agorom:
Like you're rebranding the ones.
Micky Scottbey Jones:
<laugh>, right? Like some of these ideas about type ones because a lot of times, and I mean, I'm sure we'll talk about this, the stereotype or the idea is that we're so stuffy and we're always out there correcting other people and we're rearranging the dishwasher and our closets are color coded. And like I probably have a third of my closet on the floor right now mm-hmm. <affirmative> in front of my bed. I do not rearrange people's dishwashers, and I pretty much reserve all of the criticism for me. And so, you know, there are just ways that I feel like we get stereotyped that really hurt my feelings and make me upset. And I'm like, type A personality doesn't mean type one, so everybody take it down a notch.,
Chichi Agorom:
Please, I hope y'all heard that. That type A personality does not mean type one. And it's true. There's so much of the way that we understand and talk about type that is based off of one understanding or one description that doesn't allow space for more nuance. And my, you know, mini soap box is that we're not often thinking about core motivation. We're just talking about behavior because my closet is color coded, my books are color coded <laugh>, and I'm known to rearrange people's dishwashers, or at least stand there in silent judgment. But I'm not a type one. And so it's like, yeah, the behavior is not the same as the core motivation. And we miss that so often in conversations with, you know, or about the Enneagram. So I'm glad, I'm glad you're here. I'm glad for the, for the rebranding campaign. I'm on board. <laugh>
Micky Scottbey Jones:
Thank you.
Chichi Agorom:
So my first question before we jump into talking about intimacy is what identities do you hold that are important for us to know as we begin this conversation?
Micky Scottbey Jones:
Hmm. I think I have a lot of identities that are important to me that I navigate. of course, I'm a, I'm a Black descendant of formerly enslaved people, Africans brought to the us. but I have also a complicated history there. I am related to a very famous white man in that <laugh>. I am a Thurman and related to Strom Thurman. So I am a, a Black American person who has that mixed racial heritage and lives with the legacy of that. I am a cisgender woman. I'm a queer person. I am a motherless daughter, in that I lost my mother in the early days of the Covid Pandemic and a friend and a sister. I am a southerner and a mama to three amazing children. and I, I'm someone who has, who has lived a lot of lives, who has had a lot of religious identities who's held a lot of different jobs. And I often call myself the justice doula, which is part of my work in the world of supporting and accompanying people. And that comes out in a lot of ways, including being an Enneagram teacher and coach.
Chichi Agorom:
Those are so many beautiful identities. Thank you for sharing them with us.
Micky Scottbey Jones:
Yeah.
Chichi Agorom:
Yeah. So when I say the word intimacy, what comes up for you? What does intimacy mean to you?
Micky Scottbey Jones:
Oof. I think I get a little bit nervous <laugh> initially even though I really like, you know, I think it goes to that idea that it, I, you're gonna see me like, I mean, and also I'm excited about it because I'm, it means I also get to see you, right? Like intimacy. like, it's just that, I guess it's that immediate call to vulnerability, you know, and to a dropping of your masks. And I think maybe because my type is so tied to kind of performing this goodness and like, and, and truly being good and, and seeing yourself as good. And I think I, I probably would've thought I was good at intimacy, and it was in my last relationship that I realized it's really hard for me to get to how I actually feel about things sometimes. and like what I actually want, what my true desire is. And I don't know like I'm really thinking about this in real time. Like, can you be intimate with anyone, not just romantically, but romantically is what's gonna come up to the surface here. But like, can you have true intimacy without truly knowing your own desires?
Chichi Agorom: I, I don't know. That's a great question.
Micky Scottbey Jones: I've, yeah. And I'm, I feel like I've really struggled with that, but I didn't realize it until kind of this last round of personal Enneagram work I was doing as I was kind of going through another round of certifications as well. And I, I realized like I, I finally got to the defense mechanism of a type one that, you know, reaction formation where you're like, it's like magic. We can instantly turn our bad feelings into good feelings, <laugh> into more palatable feelings. Before we even know we're doing it. And I didn't really, I had read it, of course, I had just not grasped what I was doing. I didn't really get it. And it, it all came to a head in like, well, I was going through a really, really difficult time. And my partner at the time was asking me how I felt about something.
And I immediately went to like, well, you know, I really think so-and-so wants this for me, or I think I should do this. And, and, and I, and they were like, but what do you want? And I was like, what do I want? What do you mean what do I want? Like what do I what I want doesn't have anything to do with this. And that was the like, oh, <laugh>, I can't even get to it. Yeah. Because I'm, I just am so naturally going to like, what's the good thing to do and say and behave. And that, that totally like rocked my world. And you know, it's like I didn't even know how to be intimate with my own thoughts.
Chichi Agorom:
Yes. Because there's, oh, there's, I think for a lot of us, when we think about intimacy, we start first with the other. Like, it has to be with you and some other person. But to your point, and I also believe this to be true, that we have our own intimate relationships with ourselves that can have the same kinds of blocks that we experience in our relationships with other people. And then that question that you asked really to me sounds like desire, right? Like, can I, can I actually be in an intimate relationship or experience intimacy if I am not connected to my own desire or desires? Yeah. that's a great question. I feel like, yeah. So like you, when I think of intimacy, I think of being seen, I think of the vulnerability of that. But I also think about, for me, a lot of times what feels most vulnerable is not just like the parts where I mess up or I'm not as put together. It's the parts where I'm brilliant and amazing. It's like being witnessed in the fullness of that
Micky Scottbey Jones:
Yeah.
Chichi Agorom:
Is sometimes for me more terrifying than you knowing that I don't have it all together. Yeah. Like, that feels more intimate to me, to be fully myself in my full light in front of a person and let them witness that. And yeah. I just, for some reason right now, I'm connecting both of those things, that experience and then the experience of being connected to my own desire, being connected to Yeah. Cuz that's saying internally that I am believing that what I want is valuable, is important, is worthy of being seen and shared and, you know, reached for and that there's, there's a certain intimacy to even just that admission internally and with other people.
Micky Scottbey Jones:
Yeah. And I think what you're, I mean, what you're getting at is, is exactly right because those things where we shine or that we love, we're often like told to like, cool it on that to like dampen that a little bit, to push it down. Like, you know, don't be full of yourself. Don't be too, don't get too excited. It might not happen. Don't, you know, show off. And especially female bodied folks, especially, you know, people of color, Black folks, like stay in your place. And I think even our parents sometimes, and grandparents, I know mine did that to me to try and like, keep us safe, right? Like, don't, don't be out there too much. Right. Don't shine too much or know exactly how much to shine. Right. Like, you're just this constant tightrope walking of like, enough shining out there, but like, be noticed, but not too much.
Yeah. And, you know, so when we have those, like, the reason it's so intimate and like tender to be seen in your glory and your fullness is because it's like we've been told not to, not to do it. That that's too risky. And I like I think about there's this, I think it's like this trend on TikTok right now where it's like, you know, my brain chemistry was changed when <laugh>, you know, and it'll be like the events that have happened to you in your life where it's like, my brain chemistry with my partner changed when, whatever. And like, I'm thinking right now about that for me in this kind of positive way, not just showing my like, like when I mess up or my bad parts, but my good parts are my favorite pictures of myself.
Or when I'm like, hysterically laughing, like laughing, like a true moment of laughter, not like pose. But when someone catches me laughing, don't let it be a, a head thrown back. That's my favorite picture of all time. I'll be so happy. I'll stare at that picture of myself. Yeah. But I feel so beautiful in those. Yeah. Like, I have a picture of myself about to get on–I lead trips to South Africa and I have a picture of myself about to board the boat. Cause like, they take your picture right before you get on the boat to go to Robben Island. And I love going to Robben Island and I love taking people there. And Robben Island changed my life and I have this picture where the guy just was cracking me up and he took this picture of me.
I'm not like looking straight on, I'm like kind of my head back a little bit and I'm laughing. I'm like, it's one of my favorite pictures of me. I like, there are just times like that where I feel so in my element or so happy and like...I have a moment that happened with my my bab that's what I call her–my badass bestie and I will remember it until the day I die or my memory goes, whichever comes first. And we had been working a conference together and she like called me out for how much work I had done and how helpful I had been. And I, at that point in my life, had a lot of shame about not, you know, like not doing my best or not kind of earning my keep.
And there is actually a picture of that moment where she says something really beautiful about me and I'm just like, I just like hold, hold my, my little notebook that had all of our stuff in it. And I'm like almost in tears because of the way she recognized me. And so it's like those moments, cause she and I have a lot of intimacy. We're very, very close. and it's like I, those moments feel very, they feel just as important as when somebody has said, yep, I see that you let me down and I love you anyway. Both feel like a lot of intimacy.
Chichi Agorom:
Yes. And there's something about what you said that, you know, makes me think about the experience of living as a Black woman or a Black person. because it's about the risk and the unsafety that we're taught. To your point, you know, if you are, if you let yourself shine too much, if you really embody and step into your full glory, it's a risk. It's not safe. But there are many ways in which yeah, there's that internalized message of you can't actually be as big and bright and bold and beautiful and wonderful as you know you are because the world is not set up for you in that way.
Micky Scottbey Jones:
Yeah.
Chichi Agorom:
Yeah. And, and yet those are the moments that can feel really intimate when people like, when we let people see us like that in that way. And I'm curious for you, what does, what's the intersection between spirituality and intimacy for you?
Micky Scottbey Jones:
Well, I mean, I love theology. I'm a theology nerd. you know, specifically trained in both indigenous theology and spirituality and womanist theology in a weird combination of things that became a Masters in Intercultural Studies, <laugh>. So it's a very strange path to theological training. but I had that experience as an adolescent of this deep spiritual intimacy with the divine. I had my own salvation experience in a southern Baptist church, a white southern Baptist church, and went on to go to white charismatic churches and progressive Christian churches and Anglican church. And I was raised in the Black church as a child. And in the last decade or so have interacted with people of all faiths or many faiths mostly in, in kind of justice situations, you know, and all kinds of, of activism but most of it in a faith rooted perspective. And you know, I, in a lot of ways, there are times when I like miss the intimacy or what felt like intimacy of like the evangelical, like hands in the air. Just like praise music for three hours straight. Just, you know,
Chichi Agorom:
There is something that feels so intimate about that, right?
Micky Scottbey Jones:
I just, even though I can't like, I cannot, I can't even listen to a lot of the music anymore on my own.
Chichi Agorom:
Same
Micky Scottbey Jones:
But I remember the feeling in my body. And I don't need to make sense of it. That's not where I am with all of that. and so it's had to become this like an intimacy where it's kind of like what we were talking about at first. Like, am I checking in with what's actually real for me internally? Do I trust that? Am I, is there some understanding that I need to come to with my body with the people that have come before me, the people that, that I've shared this planet with now and everything I share this planet with now and the those that might come after me. Right. Like one of the things that I think can happen, again talking about type, is I think sometimes people think that people who lead with a type one are very...Like we have a real strong internal sense of right and wrong or yes and no. And I think we actually tend to look outside at least for a confirmation of what's right and wrong. I think there's actually very little trust in our own right and wrong. That's how I experience it anyway, is that I'm like, cuz I was really good at religion and rules. Right. Because I needed that external validation that the things that I thought were right, were right.
Chichi Agorom:
Well, but also religion teaches us that. Right. It teaches, well, particularly Christianity, evangelical Christianity teaches you to distrust yourself, your own, your own compass, your own sense of right or wrong and only go based off of, you know, the Bible. Or the sermon. So in some ways, but, but you're saying even besides that there's a, that you have a hard time trusting your own internal
Micky Scottbey Jones:
Well, I mean, what a dream for a type one. You're telling me someone else is going to tell me if everything is right or wrong. All I have to do is like, get in line, follow the rules, sign me up, right? Like I can follow the rules better than anybody. sign me up. So it was not a difficult decision for me to just be like, let me hand over that responsibility to someone else. And so to bring it in back in house in a sense to me, is like that is developing intimacy with myself that I can trust that there's an inner source. It's a way of acknowledging my own sovereignty.
Chichi Agorom:
Yes.
Micky Scottbey Jones:
And so this is, I mean, it's become a way of life for me. I often with big decisions, I'll wait 24 to 48 hours. and whatever I decide is a big decision. I just like I'm realizing I'm my own sovereign being, which doesn't mean I don't have connection and responsibility to other beings. It just means that I actually have a piece of whatever that divine wisdom is. I have some inside me and it's worth checking in with that. Yes.
Chichi Agorom:
Love that. So one of the, I've been using this quote as kind of a grounding for this season talking about intimacy and it's a Rumi quote, which you might have already heard. But the quote says, "your task is not to seek for love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it." When I think about that quote, I think about responsibility. Cuz what I have done historically, is put the power and the responsibility on the other to make me, you know, even that language to make me feel loved, to make me feel chosen, to make me feel X, y, Z. And in my, we have, you know, we have different types, but my story was that I felt the way I felt because of the lack in my relationships.
As opposed to, this was not true for all relationships, but there were, there were a handful of people who were offering the love that I actually needed and craved and desired. But I was so wrapped up in my story, which yeah, a big part of that story is I have to perform to earn that love. So if you offer me love that I haven't performed for, I throw it out. It's not real. Cuz I didn't, I didn't have to work for it. and so there were a lot of times when there was love available and present, but the barrier was internal. It wasn't actually about them. So that's what I think about with that quote. It's like the responsibility and power placed on the external. That's what I see a lot of, to your point in dating, right. Or in romantic relationships, those sorts of things where, you make me feel a certain way and I or I will never feel this way about myself until it is reflected to me by someone else. And I think it's both, it's a both and it's not an either or. It's, it's about my relationship with myself and my relationship with you and how, how those two things can be nurtured, you know?
Micky Scottbey Jones:
Yeah. But that takes us back to, to why we're even doing Enneagram work, right? So like we both are in the narrative tradition, you know, and we say in the narrative this is an inside job and we really, really try and get people to stay with their own work. But you know, even more so now that we're in kind of the memification of the Enneagram and like, it's all over Instagram and like almost every time I do an Instagram live–my little Enneagram happy hour–somebody's like, so which types should I date? Like, which types are good together? It's a couple.
Chichi Agorom:
I'm so exhausted by that.
Micky Scottbey Jones:
Oh, I'm tired. Y'all that's not like, not how any of this works.
Chichi Agorom:
No. Like just, no.
Micky Scottbey Jones:
You can like, almost forget, you know, your partner's Enneagram number. Almost forget, you know, that anyone else has a number. You're the only person on the planet who has a number, that only exists for you. And then, then maybe you can start to get to the work because it's like, I actually need to be dealing with my shit. Not whatever shit my partner or potential partner or the crush I have is bringing, like I know that I'm showing up with a certain set of assumptions and motivations and ways, the well-worn grooves of how I think I'm going to somehow attract love into my life and how I'm gonna keep it. And so when I start getting back into that and this person is actually asking me for a real relationship and real interaction, that's how I blow it every time. So it's like, am I gonna get real about that? Yeah. That I like, I mean, talk about intimacy. It's like I actually need to get emotionally, spiritually naked and show my real self instead of perform it.
Micky Scottbey Jones:
And like, that's the hard part. That's the hard part that doesn't have anything to do with what their number is. You can have a good relationship with anyone of any type.
Chichi Agorom:
As long as both people are doing the work.
Micky Scottbey Jones:
Right. This like levels of health and people are like, well he was an unhealthy eight. And I'm like, I am an unhealthy one every morning before breakfast. Like, I, what, what are you talking about?
Chichi Agorom:
This fluctuates every single day.
Micky Scottbey Jones:
Right. You're just not in a healthy state all the [time] like, what, how long does that last? Cuz I don't know if I've had one. You know, like, you're all over the place all the time. So like, just be doing your work and work with what you know about yourself. That's the only thing that should be giving you. And then, which is a lot like, that's enough work on your plate for the rest of your life.
Chichi Agorom:
Hmm. Yeah. And I think, you know, I I think of the stance of like tight fisting versus being open-handed. And I think in so many ways collectively we have taken the Enneagram and now use it as a barrier to intimacy. There's a tight fist around, oh, this is what this means and this is the box. This, these are the categories. This is what this means about you. Which means we can't, I can't date you or I can't be in whatever partnership with you and it's this tight-fisted, cuz that doesn't leave space for curiosity about our humanness. And what I find every time I'm curious about people regardless of type, is that we have so much in common and the more I do my work to be present with the parts of myself that are hard to hold, the more space I have for the parts of you, that might not be my favorite thing to hold.
Yeah. And I don't need to require you then to be a version of you that makes my life easier. I have more space for you to be the version of you that you are and for me to celebrate that and love that and accept that and vice versa. But I think in many ways, collectively, again, and it feels like a very human thing, right? We like categories, we like boxes, we want things to make sense. So we want people to make sense. It's like, what's your rising and sun and moon and what's your enneagram type <laugh>? So I know everything about you now based on those things. And there's no curiosity. And it's this desire for safety. We're trying to like manage risk and we think this is how we do it. But it keeps us from love and intimacy.
Micky Scottbey Jones:
Because you, there is no way to manage risk when it comes to love, when it comes to intimacy. You just can't do it. You just have to choose not to have that love. You know? So I, I don't, you know, I don't know. I think intimacy looks different for every relationship, right? Like, there is probably an intimacy with my children, even though I'm, I'm definitely one of those Black moms that's like, I I'm not one of your little friends. So I <laugh> you know, like, they don't know the inner workings of my life and my heart. You know, there are things they don't need to know because my position in their life is their mother. But there is a type of intimacy, especially at different stages of their lives where it's like, I mean, I don't know if you have any choice but to be intimate with a baby because like babies tear down every defense you think you have <laugh> or think you know about how human beings work. So there's a particular way that that relationship has to work in order for a baby to be raised as a healthy human. and then it's, it's just like different forms of intimacy for different people that we're gonna be in relationship with.
Chichi Agorom:
Yeah. Right. So bringing it back to your type structure that you identify with, with, the one, how does this core belief that ones have, that you have to be good, you have to do what's right. How does that impact your relationship with intimacy?
Micky Scottbey Jones:
<laugh>,
Chichi Agorom:
<laugh>
Micky Scottbey Jones:
Oh boy. <laugh>, I mean, I, I think in a lot of ways the last year or so of my life has taken that core belief and taken me to the edge of it. And I've learned what happens when that is completely tested, right? Like, in order for you to love me, I have to be good. Well, what happens when I'm not good? Right? I, I thought I was performing goodness. And I've managed to for most of my life in most scenarios. because I think what happens is most of us end up, we're able to hold that core belief in place because like for the most part we can, we can make it happen. You know what I'm saying? Like, we can perform the thing that we need to perform. Threes know how to be the best, fours know how to be special ones, ones know how to be good.
Like we can do the thing most of the time and and mostly hide the times when we're not doing that, right? And then if we have, you know, I happen to have a very public instance of like not being known as good <laugh> Right. Or many people thinking I did a bad thing. Not everybody, some people are not thinking that. But so, so that core belief, what happened was I was bad or didn't do the right thing, and some people essentially did stop loving me. Like we could argue would they still say they love me or whatever. But in practice, what happened is that relationships were severed. My belonging to them or my worthiness to them was now gone. Right? It actually was taken away. And when, and I experienced this within my body, like literally getting vertigo for six weeks, literally having like extreme nausea and almost vomiting.
I had Zofran, so I didn't actually vomit, but essentially having a huge trauma response. Because it felt like getting set outside of the village, you know what I'm saying? My survival brain, which I have a whole theory which probably actually goes a lot with Dr. Jerome's theories around the brain and Enneagram. But like, even though we call it the gut or the body triad, and we talk about ones being in that, I've met a lot of ones who are like, I don't know what they're talking about. Body triad does not resonate with me. That is weird. I'm not connected to my body. I'm always in my head. Because I think we're mostly survival brain, which survival brain is the body, it's your nervous system. Right? It's all of these kind of primal systems of the body.
So I think that that is actually a more accurate way to understand what is the key processing mechanism of a type one. So when my belonging was compromised, because my core belief was now being tested, my survival, my survival brain went, we are being attacked. We are going to lose everything. We are going to be destroyed. And my body had a very, very, very intense reaction, including suicidal ideations because my body was, my survival brain was trying to get me out of here. As in the planet. It was just trying to get me to some kind of safety, even if that meant not being here as the safety. And I knew it wasn't coming from my rational brain cause I wanted to fight it. I was like, what's happening? I don't understand this message that I'm getting. And it was, it was very strange. So when someone actually faces their core belief in a hardcore way, and I'm not saying everybody's gonna have the same interaction with their body, but maybe for body types, like particularly we need to look out for this in eight nines and ones, it's like if your basic proposition is messed with, like you, there might be some wacky things happening in your body and, and even your like brain trying to get you to, to leave.
And so then the only way to come back from that to like go, well is it really true that the only way I'll be loved is if I'm good? If I do something bad, if I do, if I make a mistake, if I make bad choices, is there, is it still possible that I will be loved? And what I found is I had an accountability pod. I had friends, I had, you know, beloveds, I had just people all around me who said, I still see the goodness in you. This is not theoretical. Now I could definitely like, yay Brian Stevenson, like, you're more than the worst thing you've ever done. Like, yay for everybody else. Like, I was down, I was an abolitionist. I'm like, you know, like close all the jails. Like yeah, we love everybody. I was already theoretically there Yeah. But I was still good.
So when I became my version of bad or the baddest I could be and had to face that. And then my evidence was there were still people that loved me. There were still people that were willing to interact with me, who were extending me kindness, who could see me as more than that one thing. Then I had no choice but to say, actually that's not true. People don't love me because I'm good. People love me because I'm a person and that's enough. And so then I had to start incorporating that into my belief system <laugh>, because both things could not be true. it like, it had to be, I sort of had to work with that, that core belief and adjust it so that when that core belief came, cuz the core belief is from my type that's on top of my essence.
So I had to get to my essence that was saying, Hey, I'm down here telling you that you're perfect just the way you are. And so when I could come back to that and access it and be like, okay, I guess there's a me that exists outside of always striving to be good or perfect. And that well, I wouldn't recommend this as the path to <laugh> enlightenment or <laugh> to, to transformation <laugh> or integration. It, it's the path that I was put on and that I landed on because of my own choices and experiences. And I know now for sure that we do not have to be prisoners to our, you know, to to this story, this main story that we have chugging along in our brain that keeps us going and keeps us tied into our type. We actually can get freedom from it.
And that's why I think that's like really where we need to go. Because so many of us in our Enneagram conversations get stuck in type and get stuck in this, you know, in our core belief. And we don't move into essence and move into, you know, this holy idea or whatever, you know, whatever piece of it you want to talk about. But we don't move into like, who am I under my type. And that's to me where the freedom comes from. Because it's not that it doesn't come back. Of course it does. It can always come back. I have these well worn grooves that are on each side of the road. They're like <laugh>, like they're the gutters and I'm trying to bowl and unless I have those like blow up gutter things on there, the ball's gonna go in there from time to time.
And so now I'm just so hyper aware of it because there is no illusion that I am only goodness or anywhere close to perfection, which I didn't think I was perfect before, but I thought I was doing a pretty good job of like keeping everyone a little bit fooled, <laugh>. And that like, for the most part I could bob and weave and people didn't know how shitty I was. And now it's like people think, you know, there are people who are gonna think I'm, that's all I got that I'm just shitty. And there are people who are gonna say, I see all the parts and I love them and I love you, and I'll take those people and I'll take those people in my life. That's all that's, that's like as good as it gets. And that's pretty damn good.
Chichi Agorom:
Oh, that's really powerful. Thank you for sharing that. And you know, like there are people who will, to your point, there are people who will think that you're shitty and there are people who will think that you are still deserving of love, but what doesn't change is your essence. Even in the midst of all of that, you are still good just as you are. Even if everyone is saying the opposite. Right? I think this, you know, the way you described this experience you went through to me really communicates why it's so, why this work is so important working with, with our stories and with the Enneagram beyond type, you know like you were saying. Because in so many ways it can be really easy to think of this as just another typology system. But the actual transformation, when you realize how deeply entrenched these stories are that our bodies are, like your body was having this very visceral response to the loss of that story.
The loss of that sense of control that comes with, I'm doing everything I can to be good and now that's gone. Right? That's not just an idea, that's not just like a, a nice little bucket of types that we can talk about. It's very real. It impacts our lived reality. And so the transformation that is possible when we embrace those parts of ourselves, that we tend to avoid–the messy parts, the parts that are angry, the parts that make mistakes–the transformation is really powerful. So what helps you or supports you embracing the, in embracing those parts of you?
Micky Scottbey Jones:
Yeah. I mean, listen girl, when you, when you lose it all, that's freedom. Cause, I have nothing else to lose. Not a thing. So, you know, I can play the game like it again, it will come up again. I will always be invited back to the old ways. I have a coach Amy Babbish, she's a wonderful person that has really helped me do a lot of healing and kind of figure things out. And when she like, will offer a new way for you to think about something or, or like an exercise to try or something to do, she's like, you can always go back to the old way <laugh>. Like, that's always gonna be available,
Chichi Agorom:
Always an option.
Micky Scottbey Jones:
In fact you're really good at it. You are so good at that. So try something else and then, and just see, just see...
And so it's like, there are definitely times like, you know, I'm in the beginning of this really beautiful relationship and I have like, actually felt times where I'm being invited to like do things. Like I've done them in the past and she's inviting me to another way. And I'm like, oh, okay. All right. And sometimes I take that invitation to go back and I realize I'm doing it and I'll be like, babe, I'm sorry I was just doing that thing. I'm gonna try again or whatever. Or even if I don't say all that, I just do it different, it's like I can, I understand now when it's happening, right? I've started a new job and it's like, there are ways where that need to perform and be perfect and overachieve and whatever comes back up. And I'm like, I can choose that and sometimes I will choose it and it's like, am I choosing kind of to go with the strategies of my type on purpose in a way that I know what I'm doing?
Or am I just doing it because I'm scared? Because I think I have to. So for me it's like, it's all about choice. And am I aware, am I choosing this? And then why am I choosing it? and so I'm just, it's about freedom. Like I'm not going back <laugh>, I'm just not going back to the way that I used to do things and the fear that I used to have. Because I think like living in your hardcore type structure that can give, that can actually mean a lot of fear, you know, because it's like this constant need to perform. If not fear, it's like a lot of energy and adrenaline. And at some point it's just like, I just don't wanna do that anymore. <laugh>. I'm tired.
Chichi Agorom:
It's exhausting, yeah
Micky Scottbey Jones:
Like, I just, I'm not gonna do it. So like I'm not gonna pretend that I'm some other, being from other people, like, everybody's a mess. Everybody's figuring it out. Everybody's confused.
Chichi Agorom:
We don't know what we're doing.
Micky Scottbey Jones:
I just am like, I'm just gonna choose to be like a real person. You know what I'm saying?
Chichi Agorom:
I love that. I feel like that is the invitation for, I mean, for all of us, but especially for the type one, the invitation is to, I think of it as, to become more human because the type says you have to be perfect, which is impossible. So you have to keep striving to be something other than who you are, which is human and loved. And that, that's the invitation to come back to what already is true. I love that.
Thank you for being here and for sharing with us. This was such a joy and a gift. I know that you do some coaching work. Would you like to tell our listeners about it and where they can find you?
Micky Scottbey Jones:
Sure. I am the only Micky Scottbey Jones that exists in the world. So yes, you can Google me. I have a website.
Chichi Agorom:
Immediately in my head I was like, "unique!"
Micky Scottbey Jones:
Exactly. Thank you! Yes. what is an episode without a Beyoncé reference? Is it even an episode?
Chichi Agorom:
Doesn't exist.
Micky Scottbey Jones:
Yeah. So but yes www.mickyscottbeyjones.com. There's no I Micky, but again, if you Google it, it will come up, there's only one. And you can find everything there. I do like to tell folks that I have a YouTube channel, which you can get through to from my website, but I have panels on my YouTube channel and there aren't a lot of panels on YouTube. and they aren't very diverse if they're on there often. So I have, I don't have every type yet. I'll do it eventually, but I love that I have those up there. And the most popular one is type five. It's so great. I love it. People, I mean by like, I think the next one down is like maybe in the fifties and this is like 150 or 200 views. People love the type five video.
Chichi Agorom:
People are curious about fives.
Micky Scottbey Jones:
Yes. Yeah. So, but I have several types that I did l really lovely panels with. So I think that's such a great way to really understand your own type and to learn about other types. And I do Enneagram coaching, I do transformative coaching. I facilitate and teach about a number of things, but of course including the Enneagram. And I really do a lot of work with people on their curriculums. So I love doing that work. I don't take a lot of clients right now because I'm doing, I have a, a full-time job now, but hit me up if it's something that you are interested in and if you wanna work with me in some way and we'll see what can happen.
Chichi Agorom:
Yes. And all of Micky's links will be in the show notes, so you can use those to find her work. Thank you so much again for being here. This has been such a joy, such a delight. Thank you.